[Birdtalk] Sending hotline messages

Fri May 12 15:45:34 GMT 2006

I don't know why I waste my precious time on things like this, but I 
had to see what I had ever said that might have been interpreted as 
being "evil," or even insulting to Dr. Wood. I just re-read all of the 
e-mails (the only mode of communication we've ever had) I have ever 
sent to him (yes, I save all of my e-mails, received and sent) and 
can't find anything that I think any reasonable person would call 
insulting. I've been entirely diplomatic, especially in the first 
half-dozen or so messages, before his tone turned more argumentative. 
I've never said to him that he "couldn't have seen" something, though 
my message regarding his end of May report of Western Gulls at Bear 
River refuge was the strongest statement I've ever made to him 
regarding a report - it came after several other "discussions" over the 
preceding months. I quote from my e-mail to him:

"I'm confident that you did not see a Western Gull at Bear River. What 
you saw were clearly California Gulls. They have especially dark backs 
this time of year, and virtually all large, white-headed gulls except 
for Ring-billed have the red spot on their beak. Western Gulls occur on 
the west coast and only very rarely wander into the interior - there 
are only three records I know of for Utah, and all are in the middle of 
winter. Gulls are on their breeding grounds now, and especially the 
adults (which is what you describe) are not likely to be seen away from 
those areas. Most Western Gulls have backs that are not just dark, but 
almost black, are very large (much bigger than California Gulls), and 
have a different leg color than California Gulls. The field marks you 
mention are not definitive for this species."

Dr. Wood had reported the birds as "Western Gulls (dark gray backed 
gulls with red spots on their bills)**" with the ** signifying a life 
bird, according to his key. His response to my above message included 
the following statement:

"How can you be certain that I DIDN'T see a Western Gull?  I've seen 
Westerns in California, in fact, I just saw them in March (or were they 
Yellow-footed Gulls? lol).  Do California Gulls have pink legs?  No, 
they don't"

I don't know how to interpret this statement.

Yes, I often question identifications which seem to me to be unlikely. 
As a member of the Utah Bird Records Committee, it is something I've 
been elected, along with my fellow committee members, to do. On the 
committee, I've voted against records submitted by members of what Dr. 
Wood would call the "birding elite," and for records of unknown 
beginners. It all depends upon the evidence submitted. I've even voted 
against (along with a majority of the committee) a record of a bird in 
hand, with photographs and measurements in copious detail, submitted by 
professional biologists, simply because the evidence presented did not 
support the identification made in the field.

Do I know everything there is to know about birds and birds 
identification? I never will. Is every identification I make correct? 
Of course not. Do I freely offer what experience and knowledge I do 
have to other birders? Always - whether it be in helping my fellow 
birders learn more, or, as is my chosen profession, guiding them to 
hard-to-find birds or to simply having a great birding experience. I 
never intend to insult anyone in the process, not even Dr. Wood.

As a final note to Dr. Wood (and I promise to myself that I will spend 
no more time on this), I find it puzzling as to why you continually 
single me out in your public posts, now in at least two states, as 
being insulting or "evil" to you. I have never called you a liar, or 
any of the other "names" which others have used to describe your 
behavior. I have never, in fact, questioned your identifications in 
other than private e-mails. I challenge you to find any statement made 
by me to you that was in any way insulting, rude, or even undiplomatic. 
Maybe you think that I have been condescending, if so, it has never 
been my intent. If you allow me one last suggestion, it would be that 
if you regard the mere questioning of your identifications, or offers 
by others to help you learn more,  as personal insults, then perhaps 
birding is not the hobby for you.

Mark Stackhouse
mark at westwings.com
801-487-9453 (Salt Lake City, Utah, USA)
011-52-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit, Mexico)

On May 12, 2006, at 6:51 AM, Steve Carr wrote:

>  
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: RICHARD JILL WOOD
> To: stevecarr9 at msn.com
> Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 4:42 AM
> Subject: Re: [Birdtalk] Sending hotline messages
>
>
> I wasn't "cynical" or making "senseless diatribes" until losers like 
> you
> start spouting, "You couldn't have seen a Western Gull in Utah..."  At 
> one
> point, I was posting real posts about birds that I saw.  But enough is
> enough.  When people like Cliff Wiese, or Mark Stackhouse, or even 
> yourself,
> start insulting me and my intelligence, I fight back.  You can't be 
> evil and
> expect others to be nice.  Get a grip, loser.
>
> If you represent UOS and the other members are like you, I'm glad I 
> never
> joined.
>
> I thought birders were supposed to be helpful and friendly?  Just like
> Mormons aren't polygamists anymore, I guess.
>
> Richard
>
>  
>
> >From: "Steve Carr" <stevecarr9 at msn.com>
> >To: <birdtalk at utahbirds.org>,"RICHARD JILL WOOD" <rwoodphd at msn.com>
> >Subject: Re: [Birdtalk] Sending hotline messages
> >Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 22:18:38 -0600
> >
> >Richard,
> >
> >We've had enough of your nonsense.  Your cynical comments and 
> senseless
> >diatribes have no place on the UtahBirds.org hotlines, including 
> BirdTalk.
> >I am recommending to the Webmaster that you be delisted from the 
> birdlines
> >and not allowed to post.
> >
> >--Steve Carr
> >Board of Directors, Utah Ornithological Society
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Birdtalk mailing list
> Birdtalk at utahbirds.org
> http://utahbirds.org/mailman/listinfo/birdtalk
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